Doubting Bro

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Posts by Doubting Bro

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  60

  Why are you here, Bane?

  by dgp in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was wondering.

  not that i have anyone in mind (except for bane).

  what motivates an active and zealous jehovah's witness to come to a website like this one and insult everyone for being apostates, et cetera?

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  Doubting Bro

  out scripturize them at every turn.

  That may be one of the funniest expressions I've ever read on this board.
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  28

  Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 07-18-10 WT Study (REACH OUT)

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  comments.

  comments.

  you sow with a view to the spirit.

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  Doubting Bro

  today - If he was an adult convert, having a nonJW (I can get myself to type unbelieving) wife would not hold him back in the least. If he was a born-in who married outside the organization, then he may not be viewed as "exemplary" and that could hold him back or at least make it more difficult.

  onemore - I haven't heard anything about the materials (other than a new Flock book) or program of the new elders school scheduled for the fall. I assumed it would be similar to what they had for the COBOEs. Any specifics you could share would be great. And, congrats on stepping "aside". That awkward feeling that all eyes are upon you and the comments about how much your parts are missed will go away soon enough. I'll bet you feel as if a giant weight as been lifted!!
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  28

  Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 07-18-10 WT Study (REACH OUT)

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  comments.

  comments.

  you sow with a view to the spirit.

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  Doubting Bro

  Blondie,

  Glad you're feeling a little better. Please know that your efforts are appreciated!

  Regarding the article, it's clear how desperate the WTS is for men to take on the low level management jobs. In the congregation I attend, there are more ex-elders than current elders. And, NONE of those guys (myself included) would EVER consider doing the job again. And I think the majority of them still believe the WTS has the "truth" but they just were burned by politics or burned out. The MS pipeline has a few that will likely be appointed one day (if they last that long) but it's slim pickings.

  I do like how the WT article tries to guilt guys into "reaching out", subtly insulting them by acting as if the reason they don't want to be an elder is because they're not "spiritual". However, I don't think the guilt trip will work on folks that were once elders/ms because they've seen behind the curtain.

  I also think its so funny that for years the WTS pointed to the Catholic priest shortage as a sign that Bablyon the Great had fallen and yet now they're facing the very same problem!!! I know of several congregations that have been combined primarily due to a shortage of elders. Look for that trend to continue, despite articles such as these.
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  34

  A rough estimate of how many are still in for family or loved ones?

  by dgp in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm sure it's impossible to know for sure but, in people's opinions, what would be a rough estimate of how many people are still in because of fear of losing loved ones?.

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  Doubting Bro

  I am as well and often wonder how many sitting around me at the meetings or at the DC are doing the same thing. I look for little clues like not signing or not bowing their heads during prayer or not clapping. But, I also realize that I'm likely projecting my feelings towards others actions.

  There really is no way to tell because to admit such feelings leaves one open to apostacy accusations and defeats the purpose of "staying in for family".

  I do believe that the average JWs level of devotion is a pale comparison to what it used to be. And ultimately they'll need to accept that or change their model.
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  44

  DC 2010 Release - The Origin of Life and its many misquotes

  by Designer Stubble in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  looking up all the references is a lot of work - one of the reasons nobody normally verifies these, but trust the writers.

  as you will see, the writers are banking on this, but it is not a good thing to trust the wtbts writers.

  please find the bibliography worked out for quotes 38-51, covering the heading "what about human evolution".. interesting is that many quotes are from the [u]preface[/u] of books, where the authors honestly explain the difficulties and assumptions related to evolutionary science.. [b]what about human evolution?[/b].

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  Doubting Bro

  marking for reference, thanks for the hard work.
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  31

  Has anyone here been a 'chairman' for an assembly? Question with regard to the script for introductions

  by ThomasCovenant in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  does anyone know if the chairman's introductions and announcements are completely scripted?

  particularly with the use of adjectives and adverbs when introducing talks and speakers.. 'as we listen intentedly....'.

  'we eagerly look forward to bro so and so's talk'.

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  Doubting Bro

  JWF - Thanks for the update and for the script. Hope things are going well for you too and we really appreciate your postings!
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  11

  bethel rooms for rent

  by DaCheech in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there was a letter posted on the congregation bulletin board.. it said that one can plan and put an application to rent brooklyn rooms for up to 3 days?.

  anyone know the details?.

  is contribution necessary?.

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  Doubting Bro

  I read that the other day but haven't seen the application for it. I would bet there is a suggested contribution but I'm sure it's far below what a NYC hotel room would go for. I'll see what I can find out.

  My opinion is that those rooms are just sitting vacant so they may as well get a little revenue from them.
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  31

  YMCA now I am mad!!!

  by loosie in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i talked to a current jw today and he told me that it came out in print from the wtbts that you can be a memebr of the ymca as long as you don't associate with the other worldlys that go there..

  omg!!!

  just a few years ago i was told that i couldn't be at the ymca because it was a christian org.. .

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  Doubting Bro

  I just had a discussion about this with my brother who is a recently appointed elder. He thought it was a "matter of conscious" until I directed him to the 1979 QFR. I told him he really needs to know the rules if he's going to be an elder!

  I just went to my local Y website and elder-patrol, I don't see where there's a day use only fee. It looks like you have to become a "member", pay a joining fee and then a monthly fee. I see where they have a sliding scale for the fees based on income but they don't advertise that you can use the facilities such as the pool or gym without joining. I'm in the US, maybe it's different other places. I do see that you don't have to sign a contract.

  Honestly, I can't see what the difference would be anyway unless there was something objectionable in the contract. No different than going to a Catholic or Baptist hospital.
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  31

  Has anyone here been a 'chairman' for an assembly? Question with regard to the script for introductions

  by ThomasCovenant in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  does anyone know if the chairman's introductions and announcements are completely scripted?

  particularly with the use of adjectives and adverbs when introducing talks and speakers.. 'as we listen intentedly....'.

  'we eagerly look forward to bro so and so's talk'.

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  Doubting Bro

  I recall the first time I was a chairman being given a script and I was floored that every word was scripted. I joked with the CO that maybe he should script out the opening prayer for me as well.

  wannabefree - there are several manuscript talks each year but as you say not all are. However, the speakers must "practice" in front of a committee(at least I've had to in the past) who will approve the talk. I'm sure the CO & DO are exempt from this since they're usually on the committee.

  I doubt many organizations will script comments between speakers to this level. I've been to professional conferences and while the speaker's introduction is scripted (providing bio information) certainly not every word is. Basically, I felt like they just didn't put any trust in a low level manager being able to do anything right.
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  77

  Generation - topic dedicated to debator

  by teel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

  i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

  hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

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  Doubting Bro

  Debator,

  Thanks for the reply. One point you didn't respond to in my post was the point about disfellowshipping those that asked questions or had differences of opinion. In Paul's list of offenses that would cause the congregation to view the wrong doer as a non-Christian (I don't want to sidetrack the conversation regarding how the disfellowshipped are treated because it's not really pertaint to the discussion), no where is harboring private doubts listed. Yet, the Flock book (assuming you have access) lists that as a disfellowshipping offense. I really think they overstep bounds that even Jesus or Paul didn't cross which seems to imply the GB believes they have full apostlic authority to generate rules beyond what is written in the Bible.

  I understand your insisting there is a difference between spirit or bible guided and inspired. The bible condemns murder and theft. So, you can say that you're bible guided if you refuse to do those things based on those writings. However, inspired would be enforcing a rule detailing what constitutes theft. In this sense, the WTS wants folks to follow the rules they promulgate in the same fashion that they expect JWs to follow something written in the scriptures. TD mentioned blood fractions. Over the years, this has changed many times. The WTS has put out specific rules regarding which treatments are acceptable and which are not. However, shouldn't an individual get to decide what they think constitutes "blood" and what is broken down sufficiently enough to say its not blood any longer? If I accepted a blood fraction such as hemoglobin prior to 2004 and confessed to the BOE, I could have been disfellowshipped losing family and friends. However, after 2004, I could take that treatment without sanction. So, if I was convinced that the WTS was being guided by Holy Spirit to say hemoglobin was scriptually wrong and died as a result, who's responsible? Me? I guess in one sense because I would have put faith in men. But I think that's the point, the WTS asks us to faithfully follow their words as if they are inspired and back that up with the possibility of being shunned. If they were asking on direct orders of Jehovah (thus inspired) then fine. Otherwise, it's their opinion and while they are free to put it out there, they overstep "guidance" by enforcing their opinions.

  Regarding the appointment of elders, having been one for a number of years, I understand how this works. But, even then, it's a bit disingenuous. Many in the congregation believe that elders are directly appointed by holy spirit. In year's past, this is how the WTS presented the process. Now, they've back off a bit saying that elders are appointed by holy spirit in the sense the qualifications are set out in Tim & Titus which was written under inspiration. That's really not the same. Quite frankly, as an elder in several congregations, what happens is the secretary brings in the box with the time records and when a brother's name is brought up, those records are pulled to see if he and his wife (and kids if they're publishers) are reporting at least 10 hours a month (on average). If no, then the discussion is dropped. Yet, neither Tim or Titus mentions this as a qualification to being an elder. In places I've been, the only other points of discussion are usually 1) does he give decent talks, 2) comment regularly, 3) visible to the congregation, 4) will he get along with the rest of the BOE or be tough to work with. The rest of the qualifications are usually not even discussed.

  Actually, when I read the entire Greek scriptures in context, I saw just the opposite of high organization. The scripture in Galations 2 is a great example. So you have James, Peter and John (reputed to be pillars in the Jerusalem congregation) speaking with Paul and Barnabas talking about where they should preach. They (everyone) agreed that Paul was called directly by Jesus to be an apostle to the nations and that's where he would go while they (everyone) agreed that James, Peter & John would stick with the Jews. Under WT structure, Paul & Barnabas would have been told what to do. Read that whole chapter and tell me if Paul believed in any sense that he reported to the Jerusalem elders. The WTS often refers to Paul functioning in a similar fashion to a CO today. Now, what do you think would happen if a CO told the branch "Nah, the spirit is leading me to go here instead of where you want to send me"? We both know that brother wouldn't be in the circuit work much longer. I know what you're going to say, "it doesn't work that way today". I agree, but then you have to admit that the structure of the WTS today is much different than the 1st century congregation because Jesus played an active role in directing the work with individual members as opposed to the claim that he is working only with the GB.

  Yes, the individual congregations were organized in terms of having fellowship, taking care of its members, buidling each other up in faith, etc. But I don't see anything above that. In Revelations, Jesus directs counsel to individual congregations. Why? Because it was the early Christian believe that the individual congregations answered only to Jesus as the head. If you can point out where the middle man is, I'd love to see it.

  As for disagreeing over prophcey, having that correct I believe would be the mark that an organization is operating under spirit direction. If they're not sure, they should say it and not make a big deal of it. But, saying that the passages in the book of Revelation are fulfilled in the WTS (such as the 7 seals being 7 conventions - see Revelation - It's Grand Climax book) and then expecting everyone to just accept it is difficult to swallow. I see the WTS as the ones that would look to punish those who attempt to act as the Beoreans and demand proof for such high claims. Obviously, since I have family in I just avoid discussing such troubling items because I don't want to be shunned.

  As for 607, I've read 3rd witnesses arguments and there's quite a bit of circular logic. There are way more than 2 secular sources and if you look in the Kingdom Come book, there's an appendix that admits there is a large amount of evidence pointing away from 607. Even the website you referred to admits in the opening paragraph that there isn't secular evidence supporting 607. If 607 were such a pivoital date and God desires "all to be saved" why isn't there more evidence? If they discover evidence that puts the destruction of Jerusalem at 607, then while that still doesn't prove that Daniels 7 times prophsey had another fulfillment, at least it's something. Just saying because I said so is fine when a parent is talking to a 2 year old but it's not fine on matters of such importance. I want more proof than that.

  I agree that it's fine to think that JWs are God's chosen people. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to disagree (at least to anyone I know) without serious, long lasting repercussions. I really think that's the biggest shame of all.